Forums - SNK: no originality once so ever? Show all 86 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fighting Game Discussion (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8) -- SNK: no originality once so ever? (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1248) Posted by SinfestBoy on 03:13:2001 04:01 AM: it is SO true. the people at snk dont have a single shred of originality. I am so sick or these rip of bastards. Posted by Dynamyte2U on 03:13:2001 04:03 AM: Well, that's why they let Capcom do CvS, hehe. Seriously though, SNK had some cool games, like Fatal Fury, Samurai Showdown and World Heroes. SNK and Midway (Mortal Kombat) are the only two other video game companies that ever challenged Capcom. edit: Namco too, forgot. [This message has been edited by Dynamyte2U (edited 03-12-2001).] Posted by ImMature on 03:13:2001 04:11 AM: Get real, moron EVERYBODY (everybody who is NOT an ignorant hall-assed lamer like yourself, that's it) knows it's EXACTLY the other way around: Crapcom ripping off every possible thing outta SNK and recicling their stuff over & over again All this was discussed before in the Dumb SNK Lemmings thread. Go look for it and learn something BTW *one* single thing EVER that SNK stole from stooopid Crapcom (the Striker system) and they screwed up big time PS Thanks for giving me yet another chance to start shit against Crapcom Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:13:2001 04:19 AM: quote: Originally posted by SinfestBoy: it is SO true. the people at snk dont have a single shred of originality. I am so sick or these rip of bastards. OK... let's not restart this thread. About a few months ago, I started a topic that tried to figure out which technique and/or idea for a fighting game's engine was first used in which game and the company that produced it. In the majority of cases, it was SNK that has implemented these things first, even though Capcom does get the credit for introducing us to the modern day fighter as we currently know it. Every company has been known to steal ideas from each other and change them ever so slightly to make them different. Capcom does it... SNK does it... Namco does it... and Sammy are the kings of duplication. So please, stop it already with the lame flame war attempt. If you want to find out for yourself, go lookup the thread from the SRK.com forums yourself. Just don't go around preaching when you don't know the full story. Or maybe you just like people focusing on calling each other 3 and four lettered descriptive adjectives? [This message has been edited by Psycho Soldier (edited 03-12-2001).] Posted by Setsuna X on 03:13:2001 04:21 AM: ............................................................... this is what makes me wonder why I defend SRK.com at KOF sites........I guess I was wrong -_- ---------------------- The End..... http://syo_kirishima.tripod.com/srksig.gif Posted by ImMature on 03:13:2001 04:37 AM: Yo Setsuna, OF COURSE you was Posted by psx2000 on 03:13:2001 04:39 AM: man all i can say is dont hate on snk they make some solid games that go un apreciated. http://www.peyros.com/tags/PSXtag.gif Posted by Setsuna X on 03:13:2001 04:45 AM: quote: Originally posted by ImMature: Yo Setsuna, OF COURSE you was Damn...........well I still love Capcom.......but it seems to be only Sinfest boy.....I love the fact that people front on SNKs saying they have no originality when almost NO company is original these days Posted by SinfestBoy on 03:13:2001 04:46 AM: sorry, but I thought that capcom came out with street fighter 2 before the Kof series. sorry for thinking Ryo was at al un original Posted by phil sifu on 03:13:2001 04:49 AM: snk was never appreciated.... they made some real tight games... and always had beautiful hand drawn graphics... and your gonna tell me the two button side step was un-original?? [This message has been edited by phil sifu (edited 03-12-2001).] Posted by phil sifu on 03:13:2001 04:50 AM: what what??? http://to2008.tripod.com/PSIoriTag.gif Posted by ImMature on 03:13:2001 04:58 AM: quote: Originally posted by SinfestBoy: sorry, but I thought that capcom came out with street fighter 2 before the Kof series. sorry for thinking Ryo was at al un original Were you even BORN when that happened? Just curious... SNK has been innovating waaaaay more than Crapcom since then. And everybody with ANY knowledge about VGs knows that Posted by Setsuna X on 03:13:2001 05:15 AM: quote: Originally posted by SinfestBoy: sorry, but I thought that capcom came out with street fighter 2 before the Kof series. sorry for thinking Ryo was at al un original Oh Im sorry, I though SNK made Supers, before Capcom. Oh Im sorry Remy looks like, Iori, Benimaru and Freeman. Oh Im sorry that SNK had Tagging in and out in Kizuna Encounter a game which is older than Xmen Vs Street Fighter. Oh I guess Im sorry for thinking that Capcom was at all unoriginal.........both companies steal....hell ALL companies steal ideas. Posted by Jin Rules! on 03:13:2001 06:09 AM: Alright, here's the big JR's take on this. Everyone is baggin on SNK for being a rip off, and everyone is baggin on Capcom for being a rip off. Well, "why can't we all just get along?" Capcom came up with the whole idea of a 2D fighter as we know it today. With the original SF, they came up with the QCF motion and the DP, hit detection and format for the game. Without these we wouldn't have anything, especially the moves. Then before anything else happened that made SF2, which pioneered even more. Charging moves, combos, cross ups, command throws were all introduced. Snk saw a good idea and ran with it. They introduced charging for moves, super moves, tagging (so i've been told), and other things. Now they basically took Capcom's blueprint, and then used it to make something different. This is not a bad thing. Conclusion: Stop the hating, because both companies make killer games. Sure, Capcom set the precedent for the industry, but companies like SNK also wrote alot of the laws in the fighting constitution. Argueing over stuff like this is like argueing over what came first: the chicken or the egg (it was the chicken btw.) I am Shin Orochi Evil Cyber Shadow Jin Rules!...nevermind. Posted by Setsuna X on 03:13:2001 06:18 AM: quote: Originally posted by Jin Rules!: Alright, here's the big JR's take on this. Everyone is baggin on SNK for being a rip off, and everyone is baggin on Capcom for being a rip off. Well, "why can't we all just get along?" Capcom came up with the whole idea of a 2D fighter as we know it today. With the original SF, they came up with the QCF motion and the DP, hit detection and format for the game. Without these we wouldn't have anything, especially the moves. Then before anything else happened that made SF2, which pioneered even more. Charging moves, combos, cross ups, command throws were all introduced. Snk saw a good idea and ran with it. They introduced charging for moves, super moves, tagging (so i've been told), and other things. Now they basically took Capcom's blueprint, and then used it to make something different. This is not a bad thing. Conclusion: Stop the hating, because both companies make killer games. Sure, Capcom set the precedent for the industry, but companies like SNK also wrote alot of the laws in the fighting constitution. Argueing over stuff like this is like argueing over what came first: the chicken or the egg (it was the chicken btw.) I am Shin Orochi Evil Cyber Shadow Jin Rules!...nevermind. Exactly, I mean SNK was initially made up by Ex Capcom employees who left Capcom for more freedom in making the games. Of ocurse they are going to have similarities but at the same time they are very different. KOF is a very different game than SF, play KOF and try to play SF the way you play KOF, you CANT the same applies for the opposite. Each company steals and modifies ideas from each other and from outside sources, bashing one is bashing the other whether you realize it or not. If you hate SNK or Capcom for being unoriginal you might as well sell your videogame consoles cuz nowadays everything is a rip on something. ---------------------- The End..... http://syo_kirishima.tripod.com/srksig.gif Posted by mondu_the_fat on 03:13:2001 10:40 AM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Soldier: [B]Or maybe you just like people focusing on calling each other 3 and four lettered descriptive adjectives?[B] Err... Sorry to bother you guys, this question is out of topic, but what's a 3 letter descriptive adjective ? Posted by VietLoc on 03:13:2001 11:04 AM: quote: Originally posted by mondu_the_fat: Err... Sorry to bother you guys, this question is out of topic, but what's a 3 letter descriptive adjective ? fag Posted by on 03:13:2001 12:15 PM: I'm sorry....but the guy who made this thread needs to get his facts straight. 1)SNK is more original than Capcom...whereas Capcom has a seemingly neverending cast of shotos, SNK has never relied on the one true supposed shoto clone, Ryo. Both Takuma and Robert have changed styles (Something Capcom hardly ever does to their characters) and Sakura is a damn Yuri clone. Yuri invented the running dragon punch, after all... 2)MvsC2 has 3 fighters....SNK has been doing that for years with KOF. 3)Assists!? No....their called Strikers. 4)SNK lacks originality!? BS. Play Garou...it's the Fatal Fury version of SF3, but at least it HAS a reasonable story and the endings make sense. It's also a well known fact that AoF was well under way before Capcom even released SF2. However, Capcom ended up coming out with SF2 first...and people were too busy adoring it to notice AoF. So generally....the rest is history...Capcom had a legendary series on their hands and AoF was to be remembered as the SF2 imitation. BS.....utter BS. [This message has been edited by GeoG2 (edited 03-13-2001).] Posted by TS on 03:13:2001 12:43 PM: quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: 1)SNK is more original than Capcom...whereas Capcom has a seemingly neverending cast of shotos, SNK has never relied on the one true supposed shoto clone, Ryo. Both Takuma and Robert have changed styles (Something Capcom hardly ever does to their characters) and Sakura is a damn Yuri clone. Yuri invented the running dragon punch, after all... Modern A/R/K are about as similar as Ralf and Clark, or Vice and Mature, or Ryo and Robert, or Kyo and Iori, and so on...so just stop. quote: 2)MvsC2 has 3 fighters....SNK has been doing that for years with KOF. Sure. Btw, Garou:MotW has 1 fighter. Capcom has been doing that since SF1. Doesn't matter though. And in the home version of SF2:CE/HF, there was a Team Battle mode, but I'm not counting that. quote: 3)Assists!? No....their called Strikers. No, they're called assists. They were in MSH vs SF, circa 1997, and every VS game since. quote: 4)SNK lacks originality!? BS. Play Garou...it's the Fatal Fury version of SF3, but at least it HAS a reasonable story and the endings make sense. This is seriously the worse example you could have given. "...it's the Fatal Fury version of SF3." And the story...you mean like those two brothers, like Yun and Yang? Or the fact that only Terry is a returning character, like Ryu/Ken in SF3? Or the new character who studies under Terry, like Sean does with Ryu/Ken? Or the Ninja character, like Ibuki? Just stop. quote: It's also a well known fact that AoF was well under way before Capcom even released SF2. However, Capcom ended up coming out with SF2 first...and people were too busy adoring it to notice AoF. So generally....the rest is history...Capcom had a legendary series on their hands and AoF was to be remembered as the SF2 imitation. BS.....utter BS. Yup. Not that AOF was a better game or anything, but it would have been nice to see them be released at the same time. Posted by on 03:13:2001 01:07 PM: quote: Modern A/R/K are about as similar as Ralf and Clark, or Vice and Mature, or Ryo and Robert, or Kyo and Iori, and so on...so just stop. Whatever...and no, I won't stop. quote: Sure. Btw, Garou:MotW has 1 fighter. Capcom has been doing that since SF1. Doesn't matter though. And in the home version of SF2:CE/HF, there was a Team Battle mode, but I'm not counting that. What's your point exactly? MOST fighters were one on one back in the day...and there were some home ports of SNK fighters that had team battle mode as well. quote: No, they're called assists. They were in MSH vs SF, circa 1997, and every VS game since. Uhm...no. SNK had this all covered since KOF 94...when partners could be called in to save you from a hold....among other things that I might have forgotten. quote: This is seriously the worse example you could have given. "...it's the Fatal Fury version of SF3." And the story...you mean like those two brothers, like Yun and Yang? Or the fact that only Terry is a returning character, like Ryu/Ken in SF3? Or the new character who studies under Terry, like Sean does with Ryu/Ken? Or the Ninja character, like Ibuki? Just stop. I'm sorry, but right away we all knew they were Kim Kap Hwan's sons. Some people STILL don't know Yun and Yang's story. Uhm...if you count TS, you can add Chun Li...that's 3 of the original 8...which is far too much. Oh...and Terry looks different and older this time around too...with new clothes to boot! Rock doesn't study under Terry...Rock knows his own moves, aside from the Rising Tackle...since Terry takes care of him, OF COURSE he would have taught him something. Oh...then Hokutomaru...we know he's a Shiranui student, which makes either Mai or Andy his teachers....yet some people STILL don't know where Ibuki's origin lies. The whole point I tried to make was how the story was clearer...unlike capcom's attempt to humor us with the future versions of the Street Fighters. YOU give it up! quote: Yup. Not that AOF was a better game or anything, but it would have been nice to see them be released at the same time. Glad you acknowledge that fact...and AoF was still the first game to feature super moves. IMO...there were times when I thought AoF was better...I mean hell, you can even notice the damage you inflict on your opponents...but oh well... [This message has been edited by GeoG2 (edited 03-13-2001).] Posted by BloodRiotIori on 03:13:2001 01:40 PM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Soldier: OK... let's not restart this thread. About a few months ago, I started a topic that tried to figure out which technique and/or idea for a fighting game's engine was first used in which game and the company that produced it. In the majority of cases, it was SNK that has implemented these things first, even though Capcom does get the credit for introducing us to the modern day fighter as we currently know it. Every company has been known to steal ideas from each other and change them ever so slightly to make them different. Capcom does it... SNK does it... Namco does it... and Sammy are the kings of duplication. So please, stop it already with the lame flame war attempt. If you want to find out for yourself, go lookup the thread from the SRK.com forums yourself. Just don't go around preaching when you don't know the full story. Or maybe you just like people focusing on calling each other 3 and four lettered descriptive adjectives? [This message has been edited by Psycho Soldier (edited 03-12-2001).] errrrr, didn't Sammy make the all new original Guilty Gear series? If so, how are they the 'Kings of duplication? Hey kyo, shut your mouth Posted by TS on 03:13:2001 02:02 PM: Just to make things clear, I'm not saying SNK isn't creative. And I think a lot of things that were "ripped off" in both directions might have been coincedences (I'm sure the lead programmers at Capcom of Japan would do nothing but play Kizuna Encounter...right). And they also could have just been corrections...for example some guy at Capcom could have said "DMs are a retarded concept" and then gone on to make DarkStalkers and correct the problem, as he saw it. Does it matter if somebody had the idea first, if it fucking sucked, and was implemented badly? Anyway... quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: Uhm...no. SNK had this all covered since KOF 94...when partners could be called in to save you from a hold....among other things that I might have forgotten. Fancy tech. hits. Assists actually serve a purpose, and aren't as limited in their use. quote: I'm sorry, but right away we all knew they were Kim Kap Hwan's sons. Some people STILL don't know Yun and Yang's story. Does it matter? And they do have one. quote: Uhm...if you count TS, you can add Chun Li...that's 3 of the original 8...which is far too much. Far? quote: Oh...and Terry looks different and older this time around too...with new clothes to boot! Rock doesn't study under Terry...Rock knows his own moves, aside from the Rising Tackle...since Terry takes care of him, OF COURSE he would have taught him something. Point stands. Just because we know who is dad is, doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference. quote: Oh...then Hokutomaru...we know he's a Shiranui student, which makes either Mai or Andy his teachers....yet some people STILL don't know where Ibuki's origin lies. She's a ninja, and she looks cooler. I think you're playing up the differences as much as you can, because they really aren't that huge. quote: The whole point I tried to make was how the story was clearer...unlike capcom's attempt to humor us with the future versions of the Street Fighters. YOU give it up! The point of SF3 was to have things that WEREN'T connected to the previous SF games (like having Gill be Bison's son, or something equally retarded). SNK went a different route. Good for them. Posted by Jusatsu on 03:13:2001 02:03 PM: SNK are the only copany trying to do new things with the genre. Capcom are the ones that need to come up with something new. Dont get me wrong, I love them both immensly, its just that I think snk are trying hard to evolve the genre, unlike Capcom. Posted by Brenner on 03:13:2001 02:50 PM: They both make games differently, the characters may have similarities but both games have a completly different focus/feel. Just be happy with both and hope that 2d games dont die! Posted by psx2000 on 03:13:2001 03:59 PM: snk clearly has a more japanese feel for all there games latley and plus hell snk stop makign games they sold the rights to azure who i think sold the rights to breeza to make some of the new kof games. http://www.peyros.com/tags/PSXtag.gif Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:13:2001 05:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by BloodRiotIori: errrrr, didn't Sammy make the all new original Guilty Gear series? If so, how are they the 'Kings of duplication? Well, Sammy does seem to have a lot of original ideas, but many of them came from other existing techniques from earlier fighting games. For instance... in order to use your Super Desperation Move, you must press all four buttons to activate it, then you would have a certain time limit in order to execute it. This is an idea very similar to one used in Samurai Shodown IV where you had to press down A+B+C in order to activate your Rage Meter to use a character's super death slice move. There's also the concept of launchers and air combos, which is a concept directly from the Capcom vs. series. The only difference with these launchers is that all of them have some level of lag time, and are all activated by the same button configuration. Even the 'Negative Penalty' for those that "turtle" is a tweaked rendition of an older game. Before this, a game called "Agressors Of Dark Combat" from ADK/SNK would slowly start to take power from a person's "POW meter" once they stopped attacking. It wasn't as drastic as the Negative Penalty of GGX, but it is a more revised version of an original form of "super meter" penalty for people who don't attack. I definitely love Sammy for being able to look at a bunch of different ideas from games past and present in order to come up with the complex hybrid of a fighting engine, but without games from the SNK and Capcom stable we wouldn't have GGX. Posted by SinfestBoy on 03:13:2001 05:54 PM: JSYK I made this thread thinking about characters, not gameplay and that. SNK IS more original in gameplay, but not nearly as much in the character department as capcom. P.S. Capcom came up with: super jumps, including diff. universes, air combos, parrying (I think) and the Isms Posted by Bakasama on 03:13:2001 08:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by psx2000: snk clearly has a more japanese feel for all there games latley and plus hell snk stop makign games they sold the rights to azure who i think sold the rights to breeza to make some of the new kof games. <IMG SRC="http://www.peyros.com/tags/PSXtag.gif"> SNK stopped making games? SNK is releasing "Nightmare in the Dark" and "Sengoku Legends" pretty soon. Posted by BloodRiotIori on 03:13:2001 08:44 PM: the thing is, when a company produces a new fighting game, new characters are introduced. this means sometimes contrasting tactics are formed. But when a game such as GGX borrows different game ideas and makes it wrk successfully, it creates a whole new game. you may not think so, but lets think about it. e.g GGX has roman cancels and a instant death move. if it didn't have roman cancelling, after blocking a move a player would then think it safe to activate an instant death move. but since roman cancelling is possible, instant death isn't used in this case. This is a EXTREMELY minute example for my point. It changes the way we play the game by adding/removing game options. would mvc2 be played the way it is if tagging and assists weren't possible? Hey kyo, shut your mouth Posted by sykocrashaa on 03:13:2001 09:00 PM: I'm not gonna bother putting up my points, as setsuna, Geo and many others have already put enough I was into SNK games first, then Capcom. I love most capcom games, but I will always like SNK better. btw, does anyone know who figured out guard crash system first? I have no idea... Posted by player2 on 03:13:2001 10:44 PM: SNK... (see KoF '96) hope this helps Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:13:2001 11:05 PM: quote: Originally posted by SinfestBoy: JSYK I made this thread thinking about characters, not gameplay and that. SNK IS more original in gameplay, but not nearly as much in the character department as capcom. P.S. Capcom came up with: super jumps, including diff. universes, air combos, parrying (I think) and the Isms Well, the basic components of the modern day fighter have all been invented by Capcom thanks to Street Fighter II, so yes there are a lot of similarities with characters, especially with ones with shoto-like abilities. But it didn't take long for other companies like SNK to come along and tweak the system and come up with newer, original ideas. For starters, there isn't a character on the SNK roster that fights anywhere close to ones like Chin Gentsai of KOF; a drunken old man who fights while drinking sake, and can use the bottle of sake as well as the drink itself as a weapon... so not every character in an SNK game is a direct rip off of an already existing Capcom character. Now for the stuff that you mentioned in the PS... Super jumps appeared in a Capcom title (I think) with the introduction of Marvel Super Heroes... I don't remember which year that came out, but I'm quite cerain that KOF '95 came out before that... and that game had super jumps. As for different dimensions? Agressors of Dark Combat & World Heroes take the cake... both games were titles that had characters from all different areas of time, some including mid & final bosses from different dimensions. As for a game where a character can actually jump into a different dimension while fighting an opponent, I've never seen one. Parrying existed in the Samurai Shodown... there was a way you could catch an opponent's weapon and toss them if they tried to swing at you when you were weaponless. Of course, this is the earliest form of the parry and is nothing close to the modern day parry implemented by Street Fighter III, but is a parry nevertheless. Isms are a more advanced way of being able to select three different versions of the same character. This concept was also thought up before in another SNK/ADK title before Alpha 3 originated. In World Heroes II Jet, you could select your character, then choose if you wanted one that had more speed and less strength, more strength and less speed, or the standard version. Again, this is an early form of the Ism as we all know it today, for when Alpha 3 came into the picture, each "mode" also affected some of the special moves you were able to do. This is just a classic example of an idea used by one game, then tweaked and introduced in a different one from another company. And as for the guard crush? World Heroes 2... each character had a move that if you blocked low, your guard would be crushed. Again, the early idea of the guard crush system, which of course developed to what we know of it today thanks to games like KOF '96, Alpha 3 and Garou: Mark Of The Wolves. The list goes on and on... and we could go on to show how SNK did a direct rip off of the shoto when they introduced Ryo in Art Of Fighting... or how the idea of "Just Defended" in Mark Of The Wolves is similar to the idea of the modern parry of SFIII... not everyone is perfect, and not one company is responsible for all the best stuff in fighters. [This message has been edited by Psycho Soldier (edited 03-13-2001).] Posted by on 03:13:2001 11:35 PM: quote: Just to make things clear, I'm not saying SNK isn't creative. And I think a lot of things that were "ripped off" in both directions might have been coincedences (I'm sure the lead programmers at Capcom of Japan would do nothing but play Kizuna Encounter...right). And they also could have just been corrections...for example some guy at Capcom could have said "DMs are a retarded concept" and then gone on to make DarkStalkers and correct the problem, as he saw it. Does it matter if somebody had the idea first, if it fucking sucked, and was implemented badly? Anyway... Yeah........and? quote: Fancy tech. hits. Assists actually serve a purpose, and aren't as limited in their use. SNK was the first to create the concept of a team partner helping out...remember that. Capcom just took the idea and altered it (Quite well, I might add) to their own uses...SNK went even further by introducing Strikers. quote: Does it matter? And they do have one. Yes....it does matter. And I know they have a story...reread my post...I said most still don't know they have one. quote: Far? It shows how much they didn't care for the story. SNK can do the same thing...because hell, they are making Garou 2 and it could end up being just like SF3:2I...but it won't...since the story in Garou was already clear and understandable...and the events leading up to a sequel were noticable. Garou surprised alot of peeps...SF3 did as well, but not in a good way. Why the hell has Gill survived to fight 3 times!? It was good when it was just Ryu and Ken...why did they include Chun Li in TS? At the fans request?? That's BS. She doesn't even fit in....Bison is dead, so why the hell is she still fighting? quote: Point stands. Just because we know who is dad is, doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference. Yes it does. The story makes more sense. Everything adds up...from the intro where Terry tried to save Geese...to the introduction of Geese's son, Rock...to the last boss, Kain, who is the brother of Geese's wife...it all adds up. Yet...most people still don't know who Gill is and where he came from. quote: She's a ninja, and she looks cooler. I think you're playing up the differences as much as you can, because they really aren't that huge. The differences are quite huge....you just can't see them. Also, Hokutomaru has better looking moves and supers...which, IMO, makes him cooler to use than Ibuki. quote: The point of SF3 was to have things that WEREN'T connected to the previous SF games (like having Gill be Bison's son, or something equally retarded). SNK went a different route. Good for them. All Capcom did was create a new game with hardly any connection to SF1 or SF2. There WASN'T any point in doing that...since it IS still a sequel, after all...unlike Garou, which is entirely new. Oh well....Capcom confused alot of people....so, good for them. [This message has been edited by GeoG2 (edited 03-13-2001).] Posted by TS on 03:13:2001 11:55 PM: quote: SNK was the first to create the concept of a team partner helping out...remember that. Capcom just took the idea and altered it (Quite well, I might add) to their own uses...SNK went even further by introducing Strikers. But they didn't DO anything. That's like saying Capcom created Ralf, because there's some guy with a red headband in a background in Final Fight 2. There's extremely little connection. quote: It shows how much they didn't care for the story. SNK can do the same thing...because hell, they are making Garou 2 and it could end up being just like SF3:2I...but it won't...since the story in Garou was already clear and understandable...and the events leading up to a sequel were noticable. Garou surprised alot of peeps... [Quote] SF3 did as well, but not in a good way. Why the hell has Gill survived to fight 3 times!? Geese. Pot. Kettle. Black. quote: It was good when it was just Ryu and Ken...why did they include Chun Li in TS? At the fans request?? Yes. quote: That's BS. Why? quote: She doesn't even fit in....Bison is dead, so why the hell is she still fighting? I assume you know her SF3 storyline, so I don't see the point of this question. Fans wanted her back in, so Capcom wrote her back in. quote: Yes it does. The story makes more sense. Everything adds up...from the intro where Terry tried to save Geese...to the introduction of Geese's son, Rock...to the last boss is the brother of Geese's wife...it all adds up. Yet...most people still don't know who Gill is and where he came from. Who's Geese, and where did he come from? Who's that sub-boss guy in Garou, and where did he come from? quote: All Capcom did was create a new game with hardly any connection to SF1 or SF2. There WASN'T any point in doing that...since it IS still a sequel, after all... [B] Well, seeing as how Capcom is contantly accused (or was at least, pre-MvC2) of never doing anything different, there was a point. quote: [B] unlike Garou, which is entirely new. Oh well....Capcom confused alot of people....so, good for [b]them. Garou is a sequel, and really not any newer to the series than SF3/2I. Posted by on 03:14:2001 12:16 AM: quote: But they didn't DO anything. That's like saying Capcom created Ralf, because there's some guy with a red headband in a background in Final Fight 2. There's extremely little connection. Are you that dense!? They helped people escape from holds. Granted, it didn't take any damage, but still....IT WAS AIDED HELP FROM A TEAMMATE! Get that through your head...the concept has just evolved over the years, that's all. quote: Geese. Pot. Kettle. Black. Why do you keep replying when you seem to not have anything that can overthrow my logic? quote: Yes. Just another way to make money...so i can't really argue with this point anymore. quote: Why? Because it is. quote: I assume you know her SF3 storyline, so I don't see the point of this question. Fans wanted her back in, so Capcom wrote her back in. Again...just a way to make money...so I shouldn't be argueing. quote: Who's Geese, and where did he come from? Who's that sub-boss guy in Garou, and where did he come from? Geese is a drug lord/mob boss who ran Southtown with an iron fist. Fatal Fury wise, He killed Terry and Andy's father. AoF wise, he forced Takuma to fight his children and kidnapped Yuri, Ryo's sister, along with the aid of Mr. Big. That's basic info right there. Grant is believed to be the reincarnation of Geese. Story wise, he is the friend/rival/bodyguard of Kain...and they both follow the same path. quote: Well, seeing as how Capcom is contantly accused (or was at least, pre-MvC2) of never doing anything different, there was a point. ...................ok. quote: Garou is a sequel, and really not any newer to the series than SF3/2I. Garou isn't a sequel. It's a brand new series based on the past events of the Fatal Fury series. It takes place 20 years in the future. *yawn* Ready for Round 3...or do you quit? I sure as hell don't have any plans of stopping... [This message has been edited by GeoG2 (edited 03-13-2001).] Posted by Slick on 03:14:2001 01:32 AM: quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: All Capcom did was create a new game with hardly any connection to SF1 or SF2. There WASN'T any point in doing that...since it IS still a sequel, after all...unlike Garou, which is entirely new. Oh well....Capcom confused alot of people....so, good for them. [This message has been edited by GeoG2 (edited 03-13-2001).] One question for you - where did you find a copy of Garou:MoTW? Is it in an arcade, or do you have a home system somewhere that can play it. Please let me know! Posted by Slick on 03:14:2001 01:33 AM: quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: All Capcom did was create a new game with hardly any connection to SF1 or SF2. There WASN'T any point in doing that...since it IS still a sequel, after all...unlike Garou, which is entirely new. Oh well....Capcom confused alot of people....so, good for them. [This message has been edited by GeoG2 (edited 03-13-2001).] One question for you - where did you find a copy of Garou:MoTW? Is it in an arcade, or do you have a home system somewhere that can play it. Please let me know! Posted by player2 on 03:14:2001 01:47 AM: quote: Originally posted by SinfestBoy: I made this thread thinking about characters, not gameplay... SNK IS more original in gameplay, but not nearly as much in the character department as capcom... How, then, do you explain aesthetic creations like Chin, Athena, Iori, USA team, Maxima, Goro, Benimaru, Samurai Showdown Characters, Leona, Rugal (any Rugal), Kryzalid, Zero, and the rest of the non-Shotokan cast of SNK's fighters? This is truning out to be an interesting thread; some of the arguments presented are done in a somewhat logical fashion (save the name calling and stuff...) Keep it going... [This message has been edited by player2 (edited 03-13-2001).] Posted by TS on 03:14:2001 01:49 AM: quote: Are you that dense!? They helped people escape from holds. Granted, it didn't take any damage, but still....IT WAS AIDED HELP FROM A TEAMMATE! Get that through your head...the concept has just evolved over the years, that's all. In the example I gave, Ralf STOOD THERE! Get that trough your head...the concept just evolved by making him a playable character and giving him moves. Similarity does not = evoloution from one thing to another. quote: Why do you keep replying when you seem to not have anything that can overthrow my logic? Why don't you answer it? quote: Geese is a drug lord/mob boss who ran Southtown with an iron fist. Fatal Fury wise, He killed Terry and Andy's father. AoF wise, he forced Takuma to fight his children and kidnapped Yuri, Ryo's sister, along with the aid of Mr. Big. That's basic info right there. Gill was born into a secret organization who's goal is to take over the world by some date (I forget the year). Been treated like a king and whatnot his whole life, and has a younger brother (Urien) who's not into that at all. Same organization that he heads is the one responsible for kidnapping Chun Li's student, which is why she's in SF3:3S. Gill is also responsible for having Alex's stepdad (or father-figure, if you like) Tom roughed up, in addition to him taking some poor sap and turning him into Necro (and then later creating Twelve to replace and destroy Necro). quote: Grant is believed to be the reincarnation of Geese. Story wise, he is the friend/rival/bodyguard of Kain...and they both follow the same path. That's pretty vague. quote: Garou isn't a sequel. It's a brand new series based on the past events of the Fatal Fury series. BASED ON THE PAST EVENTS OF THE FATAL FURY SERIES. Posted by on 03:14:2001 02:06 AM: quote: Originally posted by Slick: One question for you - where did you find a copy of Garou:MoTW? Is it in an arcade, or do you have a home system somewhere that can play it. Please let me know! I've played it because: 1)It was once available at a local arcade for awhile. 2)I have the rom. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image9.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams II" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by on 03:14:2001 02:19 AM: quote: In the example I gave, Ralf STOOD THERE! Get that trough your head...the concept just evolved by making him a playable character and giving him moves. Similarity does not = evoloution from one thing to another. The original concept evolved...get that through YOUR head already! They basically used it as inspiration. Damn man, your lost. A teammate helping is still the same thing...no matter what shape or form. quote: Why don't you answer it? I do answer...but you fail to understand, it seems. quote: Gill was born into a secret organization who's goal is to take over the world by some date (I forget the year). Been treated like a king and whatnot his whole life, and has a younger brother (Urien) who's not into that at all. Same organization that he heads is the one responsible for kidnapping Chun Li's student, which is why she's in SF3:3S. Gill is also responsible for having Alex's stepdad (or father-figure, if you like) Tom roughed up, in addition to him taking some poor sap and turning him into Necro (and then later creating Twelve to replace and destroy Necro). You couldn't be more far from the truth. If you've seen some of my past posts, you'll relize that I know more about the stories in fighting games than probably everybody else on SRK. Not only are you wrong...but I've had that "alternate" background story several times in the past...it's already been proven false. quote: That's pretty vague. Whatever. quote: BASED ON THE PAST EVENTS OF THE FATAL FURY SERIES. Uhm...No...it's a new storyline where Rock finds out the secrets of his path and he must choose either Kain or Terry to guide him. It doesn't have any similarity to the past games, where Terry is trying to get revenge on Geese. Care to try again? ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image9.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams II" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by BloodRiotIori on 03:14:2001 03:00 AM: hey GeoG2, when you say you know moe about the sf storylines, do you mean you've read all the manuals?? Hey kyo, shut your mouth Posted by CHAZumaru on 03:14:2001 03:44 AM: to SLICK : MotW was released on NeoGeo. It is now the most wanted NG game with Strikers 1945 II and Samurai spirits IV Posted by Dynamyte2U on 03:14:2001 03:47 AM: Look at the topic: "Once so ever"?? I think he means "whatsoever" but his intelligence limits him from big words. hahahhahaha Posted by Baby Bonnie Hood on 03:14:2001 04:02 AM: Well, uh... Capcom came up with BBH. And then someone argues that she's a ripoff of Nakoruru -_- Look, to hell with who came up with what first. Can't we just play their games and be content with it? I play Capcom games and I play SNK games too, and I enjoy it. Do I worry about originality issues? Sometimes, but not to this degree. http://fp.geocities.com/dragonkahn/signature_2a.gif "Wanna play with an innocent girl like me? Tsk tsk, you bad person..." - Baby Bonnie Hood Posted by on 03:14:2001 04:54 AM: quote: Originally posted by BloodRiotIori: hey GeoG2, when you say you know moe about the sf storylines, do you mean you've read all the manuals?? Hey kyo, shut your mouth Surely you jest....my videogame know how never came from pathetic instruction manuels. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image9.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams II" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by on 03:14:2001 04:57 AM: quote: Originally posted by Baby Bonnie Hood: Well, uh... Capcom came up with BBH. And then someone argues that she's a ripoff of Nakoruru -_- Look, to hell with who came up with what first. Can't we just play their games and be content with it? I play Capcom games and I play SNK games too, and I enjoy it. Do I worry about originality issues? Sometimes, but not to this degree. Nakoruru has been around since 1991, BBH. I'm not saying she's a BBH ripoff, but she came first. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image9.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams II" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by Hero on 03:14:2001 05:46 AM: Hmm...the two paths of a gamer... 1) Play games you enjoy. You don't like 'em, dump 'em. Caring about originality and story is cool, but never let it sway you from the true reason for playing games: to have fun. 2) B!tch, moan, and run in circles about continuity, engines, hit detection and whatnot. Make it your life-long pursuit to find games you hate, and then bash on other people for liking it. Find enjoyment in not enjoying games, since you're busy ragging on people who play things you feel are 'inferior.' Never learn to enjoy games, or derive enjoyment from p!ssing on other people's opinions. Not like I'm saying that's anyone in here. But as far as I'm concerned, those are the only two concrete paths I can see in being a gamer. Posted by ImMature on 03:14:2001 07:40 AM: This caught my attention: quote: Originally posted by TS: Modern A/R/K are about as similar as Ralf and Clark, or Vice and Mature, or Ryo and Robert, or Kyo and Iori, and so on...so just stop. Sorry but what does have Ralf to do with Clark, or Mature with Vice, or even Kyo with Iori gameplay-wise? Care to explain where the similarities are (according to you)? Why are you comparing their similarities with those among the modern shotos? It's like, has Ryu became a grappler lately and Ken has lost his hadoken so he's now a close pressure character or something (for example)? What in the hell has, say, Mature to do with Vice gameplay-wise?? Posted by Hero on 03:14:2001 07:57 AM: *sigh* I guess no one listens to me... As for your querry, I think he means that Vice/Mature look the same. Kyo/Iori on the other hand play alike, although the dif. in their styles has been widening. Kinda like Ryu/Ken. Now I know Vice/Mature don't play the same, but you have to admit their designs are similar. No big deal imo. Iori and Kyo kinda do play the same. hcb+k, dp+p, plus both have pressure moves (iori: qcb+p x 3 kyo: qcf+p x 3 [generically]). True, there is A LOT of variation is this. Like how Kyo's pressure attack can be modified and iori's can't, or how iori has a projectile but kyo has had his shuffled around. The same differentiation can be claimed for Ryu/Ken, but prolly not in such a drastic degree. There are differences between shotos, not in appearance, but in properties of their moves, specials, and supers and how they come into play according to the character's strategy. Personally I stand to think Iori/Kyo have more of a gap in play styles than ARK, but that doesn't mean you can deny the fact that the shotos DO play differently. Posted by TS on 03:14:2001 04:39 PM: quote: The original concept evolved...get that through YOUR head already! They basically used it as inspiration. Damn man, your lost. A teammate helping is still the same thing...no matter what shape or form. Lol. You put way too much stock in SNK. The Ralf example I gave fits perfectly, because my point is that there is basically zero connection between the fancy tech. hits, and the assits from MSH vs SF/MvC/MvC2. THE CONCEPT DID NOT EVOLVE. Take the assits example... X-Men vs SF, you could either Counter out, or tag out, or do a Team Super. MSH vs SF, you could call your partner to do a pre-determined assist move, or Counter out, or Tag out, or do a Team Super. MvC, you could call on one of twenty or so assists, tag out, Counter out, do a Team Super, or do a Duo super. MvC2, you can call on one of your partner's 3 assits, you can Counter out to one of your two partners, you can tag out to one of your two partners, you get a snapback to kick out one of your partners for a short period of time, you can call an assist at any point that you're on the ground or in a regular jump, and not in hit/block/movestun, you can do team supers, and you can super cancel and DHC out of any special move, including a Counter from a partner. THAT is progression. SNK makes a game -- Capcom has something similar 3 years later, is not the same thing. quote: I do answer...but you fail to understand, it seems. Hopefully, you REALIZE that you're talking out of your ass at this point. That's bull and you know it. quote: You couldn't be more far from the truth. If you've seen some of my past posts, you'll relize that I know more about the stories in fighting games than probably everybody else on SRK. Not only are you wrong...but I've had that "alternate" background story several times in the past...it's already been proven false. I'd like to know where. You know, I decided to go rumaging through that story thread (which I ignored, because I knew people like yourself would be there). quote: Remember...Storyline wise... The SF Alpha series takes place before SF2, but after SF1. The "VS" series takes place during the Alpha series, but before SFA3. SFEX takes place after SFA1, but before SFA2. Capcom vs SNK takes place after SF2 but but before SF3. And of course, SF3 takes place after all of them. The key games in the series is SF1, the PSX/DC version of SFA3, Super SF2 Turbo (X), and basically all 3 versions of SF3. According to some guy who worked on Alpha 3, A3 is "part of the SF2 series" hence all of the ST characters, and the reason why Bison dies in every ending (to end the whole thing, storyline-wise). Can't find the interview, but I know I put the url up on alt.games.sf2 a long time ago. Coulda sworn it was at segaweb... VS and EX series don't count- just because they share characters doesn't mean that they're connected (that plus the fact that Capcom didn't even MAKE the EX games). You really should stop talking. The problem with the SF storyline is that it's the definition of disjointed. There are some connections, but you should really just pay attention to what's given to you instead of fishing for things, and playing "connect the dots." I once had some guy tell me that since Chun Li and Lee (from SF1) both fought at the Great Wall of China, Lee was "obviously" her father. The stories of the SF games are just that- stories. They're not a series of novels that start up where the last one left off. Also translation is a factor that nobody wants to take into account (you never really now how well things are translated, what is and isn't in things like instruction manuals and guides, and what is and isn't edited out in SF games). Another thing that people do when they play "connect the dots" is pay attention to the smallest details...art style means nothing. SF characters are generally sprite rips of their earlier forms within a series- MvC2 Ryu has a white headband in every vs game other than MvC1. The reason he has a white one in MvC2, a later game, is because he's a sprite rip of his MSH vs SF version. Same fireball and everything. The reason Bison is all buffed out and wears a cape in the Alpha games and isn't that way in the SF2 series, isn't because he some how lost his cape because of some psycho power explosion and blah blah...it's an art style thing. Same thing with Bison being alive in CvS...has nothing to do with storyline. Capcom wanted Bison in, and his Alpha look didn't match up with the look of CvS, so they redrew him. quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: Uhm...No...it's a new storyline where Rock finds out the secrets of his path and he must choose either Kain or Terry to guide him. It doesn't have any similarity to the past games, where Terry is trying to get revenge on Geese. Go look up the word sequel in the dictionary. It doesn't mean having all new characters, or having all old characters. It ties in with the previous games in the series, in a whole shitload of ways. quote: Care to try again? Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:14:2001 09:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by TS: Lol. You put way too much stock in SNK. The Ralf example I gave fits perfectly, because my point is that there is basically zero connection between the fancy tech. hits, and the assits from MSH vs SF/MvC/MvC2. THE CONCEPT DID NOT EVOLVE. Actually... the idea did evolve. In KOF '94, by pressing all 4 buttons while you were in your corner abd were grabbed by your opponent, a person on your team (if they haven't fought) will jump out to save you. IN KOF '95, the idea was tweaked since "team editing" was introduced. The same rules applied up above, but now the extra stipulation of mood applied. If the character that could save you didn't like you, then even if all the conditions above were met you wouldn't be saved. That's why if you took a team of Kyo, Iori and Saishu in KOF '95, none of these characters would assist each other. KOF '97 took it even further... depending on the same conditions above... if a character liked or disliked the person fighting after them, they could even affect the number of super stocks you carried over to the next match. Whereas if Terry was followed up with Andy, he would allow him to keep the super stocks made to that point and maybe even give him an extra one. Whereas if Billy Kane followed up instead, Terry would take all the super stocks away and made him start from scratch. This doesn't include the Kizuna Encounter version of the team assist which requires you to have a certain amount of life and be in a designated tag zone. At that moment, you were to do a joystick/button movement command in which your partner would jump out... then you both would do some sort of set 10-15 hit combo together. Again, another version of the team assist. More progress and more revisions of the original idea. You're looking at the progression of team assist from just one angle... grant it, the version that Capcom has invented is more popular these days, but that's mainly because in the US Capcom games are seen much more often than SNK titles. So to say that SNK did nothing with the whole team assist thing is totally wrong. They just didn't make it the primary focus of the game and just kept it more of an option that didn't really affect the actual 1-on-1 match too dramactically. SNK invented team assists. They made tweaks... Capcom implemented it and made their tweaks... then SNK took Capcom's version of it and tweaked it some more, which resulted in the striker system in KOF '99 and KOF2K. But regardless, SNK started it all. [This message has been edited by Psycho Soldier (edited 03-14-2001).] Posted by TS on 03:14:2001 09:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Soldier: Actually... the idea did evolve. In KOF '94, by pressing all 4 buttons while you were in your corner abd were grabbed by your opponent, a person on your team (if they haven't fought) will jump out to save you. IN KOF '95, the idea was tweaked since "team editing" was introduced. The same rules applied up above, but now the extra stipulation of mood applied. If the character that could save you didn't like you, then even if all the conditions above were met you wouldn't be saved. That's why if you took a team of Kyo, Iori and Saishu in KOF '95, none of these characters would assist each other. KOF '96 took it even further... depending on the same conditions above... if a character liked or disliked the person fighting after them, they could even affect the number of super stocks you carried over to the next match. Whereas if Terry was followed up with Andy, he would allow him to keep the super stocks made to that point and maybe even give him an extra one. Whereas if Geese followed up instead, Terry would take all the super stocks away and made him start from scratch. Didn't know that. Though I would argue that that's a lot more about team dynamics than it is about actual assists. quote: This doesn't include the Kizuna Encounter version of the team assist which requires you to have a certain amount of life and be in a designated tag zone. At that moment, you were to do a joystick/button movement command in which your partner would jump out... then you both would do some sort of set 10-15 hit combo together. Again, another version of the team assist. More progress and more revisions of the original idea. Really sounds more like a team up super from X-Men vs SF (except it sounds like a DM instead). But a lot closer than the throw escape thing. quote: So to say that SNK did nothing with the whole team assist thing is totally wrong. They just didn't make it the primary focus of the game and just kept it more of an option that didn't really affect the actual 1-on-1 match too dramactically. I'm not saying Capcom had nothing to do with it...my point is just that Capcom didn't copy them, and therefore the modern assits aren't related to the KOF tech. hits you mentioned. My point with the whole spiel about the differences between X-Men vs SF, and MSH vs SF, and whatever whatever, was that there's such a thing as natural progression. You're only going to have so many team games before stuff like Assists and Strikers and Counters pop up. Examples would be KOF '94, and MSH vs SF. Posted by O.Ryoga on 03:14:2001 09:58 PM: TS: "That's like saying Capcom created Ralf, because there's some guy with a red headband in a background in Final Fight 2." Ralf is a very old design. He is a character of Ikari Warriors. The release year of Final Fight (in the arcades) was 1989 while the release date of Ikari Warriors (the port to NES) was 1986 (so it must be a 1985 game). Hero: "I guess no one listens to me..." Huh? Nobody is fighting either. "Vice/Mature look the same" Nope, even when they use the same clothing, the sprites are different (noticeable in the breasts and in the poses). On the other hand Ryu and Ken are the same body with different head (and don't tell me the fire in the dragon punch makes any difference). "Iori and Kyo kinda do play the same" Not at all. They do have some similarity in the properties of the HCB + K but that's it. Kyo's firepunches have autoguard (you can do it against a fireball and absorb it while attacking your opponent) while Iori's Aoi Hana doesn't. If you take the version where Kyo had a fireball, he could have two fireballs at the same time in the screen. Their DPs are very similar but Kyo starts it from the mid body while Iori does it lower, giving Iori more hits against a standing foe. Besides Kyo's DP has autoguard. "that doesn't mean you can deny the fact that the shotos DO play differently." But the problem is that you can play them in the same way (you'll be wasting some of their potential). On the other hand, you cannot play Kyo and Iori in the same way. Hell, you cannot play Ryo and Robert in the same way ever since KoF'96. Posted by darkmanzero on 03:14:2001 10:00 PM: Yo, TS, what's up? (DMZ used to be called Zero1...Hope you get it!) Just thought I'd put this in: In the beginning, everyone copied everyone else. It just seemed like SF was being copied because it was the most popular at the time (for one- SF didn't invent the fireball, the dp, OR the hurricane kick. I don't know where they first appeared but Double dragon 2 certainly came out b4 SF1) The truth is this: these techniques and ideas evolve, but not always in the same series or by the same company. I don't think either SNK or capcom should be bashed for unoriginality. We should just play the games. Why? well if you want to see what happens when originality is put first you need look no furthyer than (ugh) MK... Posted by on 03:14:2001 11:33 PM: TS....quite frankly, this is getting tiresome. This has been going on for close to 2 days now....I'm not gonna keep argueing with you because you fail to understand anything and sticking by your twisted views like a baby to a woman's breast. So...whatever. When the time comes, you and I will clash again....and maybe then, I won't be so lazy and I'll go full throttle on you. Till then....pip pip cheerio! ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/geologo.png Custom Tag ID: "Blue Dawn" Last Updated: March 14th Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by on 03:15:2001 12:01 AM: No wait.....one last reply to you first...... quote: Lol. You put way too much stock in SNK. The Ralf example I gave fits perfectly, because my point is that there is basically zero connection between the fancy tech. hits, and the assits from MSH vs SF/MvC/MvC2. THE CONCEPT DID NOT EVOLVE. Take the assits example... X-Men vs SF, you could either Counter out, or tag out, or do a Team Super. MSH vs SF, you could call your partner to do a pre-determined assist move, or Counter out, or Tag out, or do a Team Super. MvC, you could call on one of twenty or so assists, tag out, Counter out, do a Team Super, or do a Duo super. MvC2, you can call on one of your partner's 3 assits, you can Counter out to one of your two partners, you can tag out to one of your two partners, you get a snapback to kick out one of your partners for a short period of time, you can call an assist at any point that you're on the ground or in a regular jump, and not in hit/block/movestun, you can do team supers, and you can super cancel and DHC out of any special move, including a Counter from a partner. THAT is progression. SNK makes a game -- Capcom has something similar 3 years later, is not the same thing. Psycho Soldier explained it more in depth....and no, I don't put any stock in SNK. quote: Hopefully, you REALIZE that you're talking out of your ass at this point. That's bull and you know it. I'm not talking out of my ass. Your just in denial...since your the one doing it the most often. quote: I'd like to know where. You know, I decided to go rumaging through that story thread (which I ignored, because I knew people like yourself would be there). What's that supposed to mean!? quote: According to some guy who worked on Alpha 3, A3 is "part of the SF2 series" hence all of the ST characters, and the reason why Bison dies in every ending (to end the whole thing, storyline-wise). Can't find the interview, but I know I put the url up on alt.games.sf2 a long time ago. Coulda sworn it was at segaweb... VS and EX series don't count- just because they share characters doesn't mean that they're connected (that plus the fact that Capcom didn't even MAKE the EX games). You really should stop talking. The problem with the SF storyline is that it's the definition of disjointed. There are some connections, but you should really just pay attention to what's given to you instead of fishing for things, and playing "connect the dots." I once had some guy tell me that since Chun Li and Lee (from SF1) both fought at the Great Wall of China, Lee was "obviously" her father. The stories of the SF games are just that- stories. They're not a series of novels that start up where the last one left off. Also translation is a factor that nobody wants to take into account (you never really now how well things are translated, what is and isn't in things like instruction manuals and guides, and what is and isn't edited out in SF games). Another thing that people do when they play "connect the dots" is pay attention to the smallest details...art style means nothing. SF characters are generally sprite rips of their earlier forms within a series- MvC2 Ryu has a white headband in every vs game other than MvC1. The reason he has a white one in MvC2, a later game, is because he's a sprite rip of his MSH vs SF version. Same fireball and everything. The reason Bison is all buffed out and wears a cape in the Alpha games and isn't that way in the SF2 series, isn't because he some how lost his cape because of some psycho power explosion and blah blah...it's an art style thing. Same thing with Bison being alive in CvS...has nothing to do with storyline. Capcom wanted Bison in, and his Alpha look didn't match up with the look of CvS, so they redrew him. I think YOU had better stop talking. That thread was never meant to be taking seriously...and furthormore, when I meant my past threads/posts...that one never came to mind. Your information is wrong. The storyline in the Alpha series takes place before SF2...hence the title Alpha (Where Alpha is before, and Omega is after). The way A3 was created....it's main goal was to end the Alpha series, while keeping secrets intact to be revealed in future games (Perhaps SF Omega). Oh...btw....most of us didn't have to talk to "a guy that worked on A3" to figure this out. The VS series has no tie to the main SF story whatsoever...and the EX games are side stories, but there have been comments from someone who works for Capcom stating that it might have taken place after SF2...but before SF3. We US players may never know the truth. I've spent years doing what I do. If I like a game...I make it my business to find out everything about it. I've gone through every single shred of information on just about all if not most mainstream fighters like SF, Tekken, MK....etc. May it be official...or official but never meant to be heard....or even unofficial. I have many friends who frequent trips to Japan or Hong Kong...and they were usually kind enough to bring back official or unofficial media on these things as well...translating them for me. There are many things most common day US players could only think about...yet I know for facts. Many things the japanese branch of companies limit from leaking out, because they know from experience americans could care less about stories...they prefer playing the game itself instead of studying the background info of characters. That's where I come in....I do both. quote: Go look up the word sequel in the dictionary. It doesn't mean having all new characters, or having all old characters. It ties in with the previous games in the series, in a whole shitload of ways. It's not a sequel...It's a new game with little to no ties to the previous games. Aside from Terry Bogard, the son of Geese, the sons of Kim Kap Hwan and the student of Andy...it has nothing else in common to make it a sequel. The elements I just mentioned don't make it a sequel, either. 20 years in the future...all past events have been forgotten and a NEW story begins. Get it right, already. [This message has been edited by GeoG2 (edited 03-14-2001).] Posted by Reaper1317 on 03:15:2001 05:30 AM: If your going to talk, please say real things. Look okay there is one rip of charcter: Ryo (ryu) He has all ryus moves, but he has a backround, my god! Snk was around before capcom in japan, I happen to know this as I am from Mongolia and go to Japan alot. Please Kyo is like nothing in the Capcom world so is billy kane and all the rest. SNK make great games with nearly 3D graphics and even better charcters with cool backrounds and an ongoing theme in all their moves, unlike Capcom. I'm not trying to diss Capcom, they still do make great fighting games with some really cool charcters, but SNK comes on top. " Death is the start of Life" Posted by SF Rules on 03:15:2001 07:58 AM: Considering most of the team that makes SNK fighting games jumped to Capcom after the company was sold, this is basically a one company debate anymore. Posted by CykoClops on 03:15:2001 02:32 PM: quote: Originally posted by SinfestBoy: it is SO true. the people at snk dont have a single shred of originality. I am so sick or these rip of bastards. your a fucken losty http://home.iprimus.com.au/dittmanshum/cykoclops.gif Posted by O.Ryoga on 03:15:2001 04:11 PM: quote: Originally posted by SF Rules: Considering most of the team that makes SNK fighting games jumped to Capcom after the company was sold, this is basically a one company debate anymore. You're completely lost. SNK is going fine (has some debts but it's not out of bussiness) and when Capcom tried to buy their games they laughed (not literally). SNK is releasing two new games and still keeps all it's franchises. Reaper1317: "Ryo (ryu) He has all ryus moves, but he has a backround, my god!" Errrmmm, not quite right. He has the fireball and the dragon punch, but he also has three extra moves that Ryu didn't at that time (Capcom then copied the super fireball). Of course, he looks like a merge of Ryu and Ken (He's Japanese and blonde ) but he isn't a complete rip off. On the other hand, Yuri's supers are parodies of Ryu and Ken's ones. Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:15:2001 04:16 PM: quote: Originally posted by SF Rules: Considering most of the team that makes SNK fighting games jumped to Capcom after the company was sold, this is basically a one company debate anymore. SNK of Asia has recently reopened. It makes logical sense since Asia has always been the biggest supporter of the Neo Geo and its game in general. The next scheduled game is an action/adventure platform game called Nightmare In The Dark, a game that has some similarities to an old arcade title called Snow Brothers. Other games like MOTW2, KOF 2001, LB3 and even SS5 have been rumored to be also in the works... we shall see what develops over the next few months. Posted by TS on 03:15:2001 11:33 PM: quote: I'm not talking out of my ass. Your just in denial...since your the one doing it the most often. No, yuo ignored the question, and probably forgot about it. Because you couldn't answer it. quote: Your information is wrong. The storyline in the Alpha series takes place before SF2...hence the title Alpha (Where Alpha is before, and Omega is after). I'm shocked. quote: The way A3 was created....it's main goal was to end the Alpha series, while keeping secrets intact to be revealed in future games (Perhaps SF Omega). No, it wasn't. It's purpose was to end everything related to the SF2/SFA storyline. Bison dies in every ending. Think about that for a second. EVERY ending but his own. ALL of them. And ALL of the characters from the SF2 series are in the game. It was meant to be a resoloution. Check out the endings. Very few of them have that "to be continued" flavor (Rose is the only one that pops to mind), as opposed to something like A2, where we had the implication that Charlie was still alive from his ending, we had Rose finding out Bison wasn't dead yet, we had the whole Akuma vs Ryu and Akuma vs Gen thing, and so on. quote: Oh...btw....most of us didn't have to talk to "a guy that worked on A3" to figure this out. Hey, genius? You're wrong. And some guy who worked on A3 carries more weight than some guy who read a bunch of doujinshi. quote: I've gone through every single shred of information on just about all if not most mainstream fighters like SF, Tekken, MK....etc. May it be official...or official but never meant to be heard....or even unofficial. I have many friends who frequent trips to Japan or Hong Kong...and they were usually kind enough to bring back official or unofficial media on these things as well...translating them for me. There are many things most common day US players could only think about...yet I know for facts. See the thing is, if you're reading a bunch of unofficial manga and stories, there's not much you can really "know for facts." quote: Many things the japanese branch of companies limit from leaking out, because they know from experience americans could care less about stories...they prefer playing the game itself instead of studying the background info of characters. Riiiiight. Sure, that's it. quote: It's not a sequel...It's a new game with little to no ties to the previous games. Aside from Terry Bogard, the son of Geese, the sons of Kim Kap Hwan and the student of Andy...it has nothing else in common to make it a sequel. The elements I just mentioned don't make it a sequel, either. 20 years in the future...all past events have been forgotten and a NEW story begins. Get it right, already. Rock is the son of Geese (old character), and also mentored by Terry (old character). The end boss in the game is Rock's uncle, and the brother-in-law of Geese (old character). Plus, Rock shares some specials/supers with Geese (old character) and Terry (old character). The two Kim boys are the sons of Kim Kaphwan (old character), and share some moves with him. Ninja kid is a student of the Shiranui ninja style, which he shares with Andy (old character) and Mai (old character). Big black shoto dude fights in the same style of Ryo (old character) and Takuma Sakazaki (old character), and shares some specials with him. Terry (old character) has been in pretty much every Garou(a.k.a. Fatal Fury) game ever. But of course...there's no connection between the games...right... Before going into any argument, consider that there's a very real chance that you could be wrong. I almost always do that. You should try it some times. Makes things easier. Have a good day. Posted by on 03:15:2001 11:52 PM: TS......I don't read doujinshi...or manga. Also....I'm not wrong...and like I've said earlier, that was my last reply to your quotes....since your obviously stubborn and refuse to believe what someone else says and you stick to your own opinions, it's obviously not my place to try to explain anything to you since you'll just disregard it anyway. Until whenever we clash again..... ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/geologo.png Custom Tag ID: "Blue Dawn" Last Updated: March 14th Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by on 03:15:2001 11:55 PM: Also...official AND unofficial...both japanese and american media....Capcom of Japan and Capcom of America alike. See....another thing I said that you couldn't understand right. Congrats.... Anywayz....cheerio, old chap. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/geologo.png Custom Tag ID: "Blue Dawn" Last Updated: March 14th Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by The Ozz-Fan Cometh on 03:16:2001 12:29 AM: quote: Originally posted by SinfestBoy: it is SO true. the people at snk dont have a single shred of originality. I am so sick or these rip of bastards. *LMAO* Man, just about anything capcom does i can say "NeoGeo's Been doing that for YEARS!" Assists? KoF 94, anyone? Tag Team? I'll own all of you at kizuna ;p Team Fighting...(See assists) Ryo Isnt a Ryu ripoff. Lesse... Ryo's superfireball DOESNT Suck.. He's got a Zanretsuken, Heinshippukyaku(If you say this is the same thing as a tatsumaki senpuu kyaku, you need a swift kick to the gut) he's got Kyokugenryuu Renbu Ken, and The Kyokugenryuu Ougi. Ryu's...AN UPPERCUT Super! Who'd have Seen that coming?! EDIT: And whats this "SCRUB" Shit? I can immediately have my playing style judged by how many messages i've posted? Damn... ---- "Your bullshit culture licking, cant stop the deathwatch ticking..you're only human after all..." [This message has been edited by The Ozz-Fan Cometh (edited 03-15-2001).] Posted by Neo Rasa on 03:16:2001 12:42 AM: Just wanted to clear some stuff up ^_^. The Art of Fighting/SF2 Connection- First, Ryo Sakazaki and Robert Garcia were created and designed before the SF2 versions of Ken and Ryu. Art of Fighting was in production before SF2. The designers left Capcom however so that they could have more creative freedom, which is why they ended up moving to SNK and not being able to get the game out until 1992. Also, while Ryo and Robert share two moves with Ken and Ryu, Ken and Ryu do NOT the down/away-towards-kick, the towards-away-towards+punch/kick, various super moves, they didn't get mid air fireballs and kick specials til much later on, etc. etc. Yuri Sakazaki has several moves that Ryu and Ken never even heard of. She was later parodied by Sakura. This was taken to hilarious proportions in the Dan+Sakura ending in Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter, which was a parody of the ending of the original Art of Fighting/intro for Art of Fighting 2. I personally have never considered Ryo/Ken/Ryu/Robert to be ripoffs of anything since the same single person created all four of them. Gameplay/Aesthetic advances (these are all off the top of my head so let me know if I miss anything)- One on one fighting: Karate Champ (1984) Special moves: Street Fighter (1987) Two on two/Two on one fighting, backdash, OTG, throwing: Street Smart (1988) Music that plays without stopping during the match, counter moves, changing backgrounds, taunting, away+away back dash, coherent story mode, sidestepping, voice samples for basic moves and hits: Fatal Fury (1990) Super moves/meter, visible damage on the characters, dynamic camera view, forward dash, dedicated story mode, taunting effects super meter, standing overheards, standing lowhits, manually/self charging meter, earning better attributes/moves as you progress through the game, up to 2 midair attacks in one jump: Art of Fighting (1992) Desperation (available when life is low) moves, heavy attacks: Fatal Fury 2 (1992) Running, weapon on weapon contact, meter increasing damage: Samurai Shodown (1993) Throw reversal: World Heroes 2 (1993) Mid air projectiles: Fatal Fury Special (1993) Throw escapes, different prefight dialogue for every combination of character vs. character: Art of Fighting 2 (1994) Command throw whiff animations, lying down, rolling, feints: Samurai Shodown 2 (1994) Air combo, feints, alt throws, dedicated story mode for each character, multiple endings per character, super comboes, situational music: Fatal Fury 3 (1994) Ring outs, OTG follow ups: Real Bout Fatal Fury (1994/95) Team play, assists: The King of Fighters '94 (1994) Tag team play, dual attack: Kizuna Encounter (1995) Guard crush: The King of Fighters '96 I believe that's everything important. SNK's financial situation- All SNK did was ask for an extension on which to pay it's taxes. Considering Japan's current economic state I'm not surpised. Aruze could easily pay this dept off for them, however it would make SNK look a LOT better if they were able to get out of the situation on their own (or get out of the whole situation with a bankruptcy loophole), which would do wonders for their repuation in the business world. So all we can do about this at the moment is wait and see, since Aruze is going to do the same thing, and if not they'll just bail them out a the last second. Aruze is one of the single most powerful companies in Japan so I don't think that will be much of a problem for them. Also, why did everyone think that SNK was doomed the second they were bought by Aruze? I mean SNK owns Nakoruru, the single most popular fighting game character in Japan, and SNK owns the intellectual rights for the The King of Fighters franchise, the best selling 2D fighter series when you look at it from a global perspective. Why would Aurze stop something that would MAKE THEM MONEY? Why would SNK sell something to Capcom that can MAKE THEM MONEY? So far SNK is doing everything they said they would in their original statement; Pull back into Japan to sort out the business end of the Aruze purchase, become international with Aruze, moving into Asia first, then eventually come into the US in about three years. Master Geese must have been planning it this way ever since SNK released The Ozma Wars in 1978 ^_~. Brezzasoft- Rumormill bullshit. Eolith- Rumormill bullshit. SNK's current game lineup: Sengoku 3/Sengoku 2001- That's right a third part to the Sengoku games, one of the characters in it look like Galford of SS fame. The graphics look superior to Alien vs. Predator and supposedly the game will have a total of thirty playable characters. It LOOKS like it's keeping the same dark mythical atmosphere which made the original game so interesting. I'm hoping they left in all the cool details of the original like the weapon on weapon contact, blocking, weapon break animations, etc. Nightmare in the Dark- A Metal Slug style game with a gothic/medieval look to it. I'm hoping for something on par with an old school Castlevania or GnG game. Now, a complete version of The Last Blade 3 DOES exist even as we speak, and it has existed for about a year now, but I think SNK is going to hold off on releasing it until they get back on their feet. [This message has been edited by Neo Rasa (edited 03-15-2001).] Posted by EVIL5150 on 03:16:2001 01:49 AM: you guys all suck, everyone knows karate champ was the first fighting game. sf2 invented combos. sf1 invented superjumping. dbz invented supers and throw escapes. mk2 invented aircombos. But the real question is who invented taunting?! Posted by Neo Rasa on 03:16:2001 01:58 AM: Read my original post. Posted by The Ozz-Fan Cometh on 03:16:2001 02:20 AM: quote: Originally posted by EVIL5150: you guys all suck, everyone knows karate champ was the first fighting game. sf2 invented combos. sf1 invented superjumping. dbz invented supers and throw escapes. mk2 invented aircombos. But the real question is who invented taunting?! AoF1. ;p BTW, Didja know 5150 could be VIL (Shoulda been E5150--[V=5. I=1. L=50. ;p)? Or is that why you chose the name? Black Sabbath rocks ;p [This message has been edited by The Ozz-Fan Cometh (edited 03-15-2001).] Posted by The Ozz-Fan Cometh on 03:16:2001 02:45 AM: FF1..my bad. http://www.ozzy.com//ozzycard/images/card1_thumb.jpg Posted by Neo Rasa on 03:16:2001 09:06 AM: Damn, I left out air blocking. Mid air block: Fatal Fury 3 (1994). Posted by Kamui on 03:16:2001 09:40 AM: "You're completely lost. SNK is going fine (has some debts but it's not out of bussiness) and when Capcom tried to buy their games they laughed (not literally). SNK is releasing two new games and still keeps all it's franchises." Well i wouldnt say there doing fine, but SNK is alive and Aruze as been sapporting them better than previously thought. Even though SNK apparently still has the rights to there major labels, they have fired the staff that created MOTW and LB2 series. Even if they do still have the rights to those games, it wont be by the same staff, further attempts at sequals to the games will ether be failures or not so good...Atleast the MOTW staff is doing a new fighter under Sammy... Posted by Neo Rasa on 03:16:2001 09:54 AM: You can't honestly think they won't be as good just cause the original team isn't making them! The games HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN MADE YET! Besides look at what Capcom was able to do without AoF's main designer! ^_^ Posted by Kamui on 03:16:2001 09:57 AM: "Now, a complete version of The Last Blade 3 DOES exist even as we speak, and it has existed for about a year now, but I think SNK is going to hold off on releasing it until they get back on their feet." Where did you get this information? Im curious. As for this argument is conscerned, the moron that happened to say SNK didnt invent anything is well, a moron. You obviously dont know what your talking about. Snk has been more than creative with there fighters, and although some of them have been failures, they were still attempts at something new. Nobody can ignore the popularity of many of SNK's titles, that does mean something. As for the other side of this argument(SNK fanboys), although many SNK fans like to bring up the "the guy that created SF is the same guy behind Art of Fighting" argument to somehow justify as to how Capcom isnt creative or something, they themselves dont realise that the person that actually invented the ENGINE for SF2(not the IDEA) is none other than Arika. The standards set by such an engine(a truly well made one that most 2D fighters emulate today)have made a major difference for 2D fighters today. Many SNK fans forget to point that out... [This message has been edited by Kamui (edited 03-15-2001).] Posted by Kamui on 03:16:2001 10:08 AM: Good point. I should just wait and see what happens. I seriously hope the sequals will be good, MOTW2!!! quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa: You can't honestly think they won't be as good just cause the original team isn't making them! The games HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN MADE YET! Besides look at what Capcom was able to do without AoF's main designer! ^_^ Posted by Neo Rasa on 03:16:2001 10:41 AM: ...Many SNK fans forget to point that out... Why must you lump me into the same group o people that would sooner die than play a Capcom game? Posted by Kamui on 03:16:2001 10:52 AM: Im sorry!!! That wasnt directed towards you anyways, i had your qoute at the top as i wanted to know where you heard the info in LB3. That goes to anyone who ever questioned such :P quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa: ...Many SNK fans forget to point that out... Why must you lump me into the same group o people that would sooner die than play a Capcom game? Posted by Neo Rasa on 03:16:2001 11:08 AM: "It's a secret to everybody." -Moblin Here, have some rupees! Edit... Seriously though, check the email you made available in your profile on this board, all the info you need is in there. [This message has been edited by Neo Rasa (edited 03-15-2001).] Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:16:2001 07:09 PM: quote: Originally posted by EVIL5150: you guys all suck, everyone knows karate champ was the first fighting game. sf2 invented combos. sf1 invented superjumping. dbz invented supers and throw escapes. mk2 invented aircombos. But the real question is who invented taunting?! Ummm... I think everyone knows that Karate Champ came before all of these other fighters. But read the wording... Street Fighter II created the first "modern day fighter". When this game came around, the standards for fighting games in the future were laid. If it wasn't for SFII, most fighters these days may be still as simplistic as Karate Champ. But if you want to be technical... "Yie Ar Kung Fu" came before Karate Champ... didn't it? Posted by O.Ryoga on 03:16:2001 09:08 PM: quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa: Why must you lump me into the same group o people that would sooner die than play a Capcom game? Arrgghhh...I've been playing CvsS, SFII and Rival Schools, damned. BTW, it was the first SF the one that created the basis to moder fighting games (SFII added a lot of new elements, of course). Posted by Neo Rasa on 03:16:2001 11:26 PM: sf2 invented combos Street Smart, 1989. sf1 invented superjumping Fatal Fury 3, 1994. mk2 invented aircombos. MK2's 'air comboes' were glitches and bugs, they were never intended to be actual gameplay tactics. Posted by The Ozz-Fan Cometh on 03:17:2001 04:20 AM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Soldier: Ummm... I think everyone knows that Karate Champ came before all of these other fighters. But read the wording... Street Fighter II created the first "modern day fighter". When this game came around, the standards for fighting games in the future were laid. If it wasn't for SFII, most fighters these days may be still as simplistic as Karate Champ. But if you want to be technical... "Yie Ar Kung Fu" came before Karate Champ... didn't it? Yie Ar Kung Fu OWNED! http://www.ozzy.com//ozzycard/images/card1_thumb.jpg Posted by ImMature on 03:17:2001 09:24 AM: Why are you guys wasting yer time with some guy (namely TS) who happens to think that Mature & Vice/Ralf & Clark/Ryo & Robert/Kyo & Iori play all alike?? Posted by Strider_ShiedoShaw on 03:17:2001 10:02 AM: Damn, late as usual. Capcom is generic. As much as I love the SF games, how many times can a person view the SF alpha ryu\ken and not cringe? They've been using the same character models and moves since forever now. Kof totally redrew most of the characters after 95, added a ton of new moves, etc. Alpha 2 added better backgrounds and took out chain combos... Capcom's guys have little personality. Doesn't have shit to do with how they play, but ewwwwwwww, they can't draw clothes for shit. Look at sterotypical army guile, then look at ralph and clark. Look at muscle back zangief, then look at goro or even blue mary. Where is capcom's originality in the character design? Finally with third strike, they tried a little harder, with Q and Remy, but am I the only person that laughed at Cody in a jail bird suit (probably)? And Snk always puts at least 3x the effort when it comes to backgrounds. As far as gameplay, they all basically ripped off of SF2, but given that capcom keeps rehashing their old shit, it's all fair game. Outside of Samurai Showdown and Last Blade, they all rip. As for Mark of the Wolves, yeah it ripped off of SF3, but it played and looked well enough where I wouldn't dare call it inferior. Besides, look at the hardware. (shut the fuck up) ok, ok, i'm leaving!!!!!! http://fp.geocities.com/jshaw_lover101/SHINGODANCE.gif Posted by Neo Rasa on 03:17:2001 10:30 AM: As for Mark of the Wolves, yeah it ripped off of SF3, but it played and looked well enough where I wouldn't dare call it inferior. Besides, look at the hardware. They all rip though, like you said, I mean SF3 was just a ripoff of AoF3 if you ask me, right down to the parrying being like the direction breaks, old style gameplay with an original animation style, Ryo and Robert being the only returning characters, etc. in the third AoF game. All times are GMT. The time now is 10:22 PM. Show all 86 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.